Facing my Demons: Two-wheel Versus Three-wheel Recumbents

During 2013, my main ride was my ICE Vortex+ recumbent trike. I completed 14 centuries, twelve of which were on the trike and the rest on my Rans X-Stream two-wheeler.  My total mileage for the year was 10,300, about 8,000 of which, were on my trike.

In 2014, I haven't been motivated to ride the centuries each month, but my mileage thus far is similar to 2013, and I am on track for another 10,000 mile year.  At the beginning of this year,  I started to ride the two-wheeler more.  The greater speed of the XStream seduced me.  The X-Stream is a very comfortable ride over long distances, especially in open country riding.  There was a period during the first part of the year when I was convinced that most of my 2014 riding would be on the X-Stream.  I even bought a new set of carbon tubular racing wheels.  The ride is fantastic with the new wheels, and I am typically 1.5 to 2.5 mph faster on souped up XStream compared to my 'fast' trike, the Vortex+.

While on my two-wheeler I would sometimes talk to myself about my recumbents.  "Why do I ride the trike when I am so much faster on the Rans?" I would say to myself.  I would also say silly things like, "Howard, you are not old enough to ride trikes.  Why don't you get out there with the fast guys?"

After a few days of exclusive two-wheel riding in early February, I decided to get back on the trike. It was a cold, windy day at our home in Florida and it felt good being back on the trike.   With the trike, keeping balance with strong side winds is not a problem.  When riding with lots of traffic whizzing by, side winds can be a bit unnerving.   On that day, being a little bit slower was not a problem.  And, I was having fun, despite the weather.

I have a friend who I ride with in Florida who rides a two-wheel highracer and likes to go fast. When I ride with him I most always take the X-Stream and really enjoy racing along one of Florida's trails with my buddy.

When I am back riding alone, I most always choose the trike.  Why?  For one thing, speed is less important to me than enjoying the ride, and the trike is more fun.  But, to be honest, explaining the most important reason forces me to make a confession.  My most important priority these days is safety, and I consider the trike to be a much safer ride.  When I am climbing steep grades, I can relax and not worry about losing my balance and having an accident.

In 2007, I was climbing a not-so-steep grade in North Georgia.  I lost my concentration, was in the wrong gear, started to slow down too much, panicked, and fell over.  The crash to the pavement resulted in a broken hip, broken femur and close to a year of physical and mental rehabilitation.  I was riding a high racer with my pedals about 7 inches higher than my seat height, which made it difficult for me to recover my balance while falling.  If I had been on a trike, no problem.

So, many times since the accident when I go out for a ride I think about safety and accidents, and I choose the trike.  The experts say that after an accident such as mine, one should confront fears by not shying away from situations similar to the conditions of the accident.  I have taken that to heart, and after the accident have gone out on two wheels and climbed very steep grades, often, even thought it was scary at first.  In fact,  the year after the accident, I entered Florida's Horrible Hundred ride on my two-wheeler at the time, a Rans Titanium V-Rex.  There are several steep climbs on this ride, including Sugarloaf Mountain (see photo to the left), which I ascended with relative ease on the Ti-Rex.  Yes, I conquered my fear, but nevertheless, there is still a little voice inside my head that keeps whispering to me, "Take the trike. You will not have to worry about having another falling accident!"

The bottom line is that little voice often wins.  Doesn't bother me though, because the trike is so much fun to ride.  I am no speed slacker on the trike.  I can usually keep up with any other bike when I ride in groups.  Plus, when I ride in the North Georgia mountains, I look forward to the climbs, and the steeper the better.  I do get dropped by some two wheelers on the steepest climbs, but what the heck, ascending those mountains on my trike is a worry-free blast.  Descending at high speeds is no longer a 'white knuckle' experience, and even though I have to be careful not to flip the trike on fast descents, going down curvy mountains on the trike is a wonderful 'go cart' experience.

The safety issue isn't all about climbing and descending mountains.  A more frequent issue is riding in traffic, although I admit to trying to ride away from cars and trucks as much as possible.  In Florida, where I live part of the year, my daily ride is usually along Gulf of Mexico Drive on Longboat Key.  There is a bike lane, but it is not wide, and during the snow bird season there are lots of cars, service vehicles, ambulances, speeding police vehicles, etc.  I live along Gulf of Mexico Drive, so it is easy to just ride out of my garage on do the 20 mile loop around Longboat Key. Since there is usually lots of traffic, I have flashing lights front and rear regardless of whether I ride the trike or the XStream.  I feel safer on the trike.  Not only is stopping and starting more effortless on the trike since I do not have to unclip after braking, I feel much more in control on the trike.  With my flashers and my flag, visibility is not an issue, in fact it seems that vehicles give me more space while they are passing than when I ride the two-wheeler.

The other day I was riding along on my trike and a woman was parked in a driveway waiting to enter Gulf of Mexico Drive.  Since she was stopped, and I had the right-of-way I kept going at a moderate speed.  Just as I approached the driver wasn't looking at the bike lane, and when she saw the car lane clear she moved out and almost hit me.  I had to swerve quickly to avoid the collision. She braked as I swerved and an accident was avoided.  If I had been on two wheels, there is a good chance I would have fallen over onto the road.  With the trike, I kept my balance and was able to maneuver to avoid being hit and then back onto the bike path.

The fun and safety factors keep me on my trike more frequently than my two-wheeler.  I will continue to ride two wheels in certain situations, but my first choice is the trike.  Going forward, I will always be keeping my purchasing eyes open for trikes that are better and faster, although it is hard for me to imagine a better trike than the ICE Vortex+.

The memories of my 2007 accident are a big factor in my trike preference, but my riding choice go way beyond that.    I can train hard and ride hard on my trike.  When I am top condition, being on a trike does not seem to impact that much when I am competitive situations, which these days seem less and less frequent.  The trike seems to offer me most everything I need.  So, I can have my cake and eat it too. I can have fun, ride fast, and stay relatively safe.

Pros of Cons of Long Distance Riding on a Recumbent Trike

I have now completed a few centuries on my ICE Vortex+ recumbent trike. I believe that a trike built for speed (or maybe just comfort) is an excellent way to do these longer distance rides. With six full centuries (100 miles) completed in 2013, here is my assessment of the pros and cons of using the trike as a long distance machine.  This post is copied from my thread on BentriderOnline, and includes comments from other members of that online forum.






PROS

• Comfort - I was mostly very comfortable throughout the ride. I find that a very laid back, aerodynamic position to be ideal for many hours in the saddle. The only real pressure point that caused some discomfort was my feet. More on this in the 'cons' section. I also like the fact that after the fatigue inevitably settles in, I don't have to 'worry' about balance. I can focus on pedaling and let the hills come as they may. Also, I love the ICE carbon seat. 
• Attention - This may seem like a silly one. However, I was the only trike that I am aware of on this ride, and one of the very few on the other rides. What does this mean? People at rest stops, especially kids, expressed amazed interest in my trike. Conversations were started, and I had lots of fun explaining the joys of triking. This didn't help my finishing time, but it sure added to the joy of the ride. One guy, on a highracer, told me he was thinking of trading for a Catrike 700 because it looked like he would enjoy riding the trike more. I didn't reinforce his comment, but I thought it was interesting.
• Fun - The fun factor of riding a trike has been discussed in other threads. I may be slower on the trike, but a Century on a trike is more fun that a Century on two wheels. That is, admittedly, a very personal observation, but a real one to me. Those that are aiming for the fastest possible times to the finish will likely not agree, but if your goal is to get to the end and really enjoy the ride, the trike is a very good option.
• Speed - Despite a rather slow finish yesterday, I believe as I continue to focus on training for distance on my Vortex+, I will be able to achieve very respectable finishing times. Respectable is in the eyes of the beholder, but I am confident that I can achieve my personal stretch goals on a trike. Training for continual performance improvement on my trike is fun and very satisfying. My stretch goals, however, have more to do with distance than speed, but both are factors. I am convinced that the more I train on a trike, the faster and farther I will be able to go.

CONS

•  Speed - In my opinion, the trike will never be as fast as a two wheeler, all other things being equal. For 100 miles, I am between 30 - 60 minutes slower on a trike. That is very personal, and each individual's experience may vary. A trike is not the answer for those whose primary objective is to get to the finish line as fast as possible.
• Socialization - It is hard to ride with others and carry on a conversation. On a trike, I tend to be a loner, especially on long distance rides.
• Foot pain - Yesterday, after about 70 miles my foot pain kicked in from all the pressure of pedaling. This is a constant problem, and seems to be worse on any trike than it was on two wheels. Who knows why.
• Visibility - This may be more of a psychological issue that a real one. But, I still feel the need to weight my trike down with flashing lights, and to decrease my aerodynamics with a flag, even on an organized ride through low traffic rural areas. I never know in advance exactly what the conditions will be, so I load up with safety/visibility devices. These slow me down a bit, and may even be annoying (the bright Dinotte flashing lights) to other riders.

The bottom line is that I love doing long distances on the Vortex+. I am sure that other performance trikes like the Cat700 can provide the same enjoyment and satisfaction.



What follows are the comments of members of the BentriderOnline forum on the plus and minus, of long distance triking.

cesnyderces 11-11-2012 12:56 PM 
As you ride more and have more frequent long distance rides, you'll discover (hopefully) that your trike can indeed be as fast if not faster than most df's. I dropped the flag (don't need it and no not another flag discussion plz), lightened the load considerably by taking only what I need.



Keep on riding safe

joseph1959 11-11-2012 01:20 PM 
Wow Howard, Nice! I just havn't had the time this year. One century on the Windcheetah and I agree it was my most comfortable ever. Much slower than the majority of my highracer centuries in the last few years but I was still much faster than many DF riders. I am looking forward to riding one on the Venom with the 24" front wheels.



My only guess about the foot pain...possibly due to more constant pressure on the trike vs the two wheeler. The WC as nice a trike as it is just doesn't coast as far or as fast as my Carbent did. That translates into more pressure over a more extended time.

projo 11-11-2012 03:55 PM 
On my trike my feet are higher than on most of my bikes. For me the foot discomfort sets in about the way it does on my high racer.



I am slower on my trike than the bikes but I was not as much slower when I had the Speed. I would like to try a Catrike 700 and the Ice Vortex.



Saw a group of ~5 riders last week, 3 of which were on new Vortexes. Looked really nice, although I'm not a big fan of white.

doncl 11-11-2012 06:59 PM 
Howard, if you gotta ride with the flag, go for it. I want you to stay safe. I personally choose not to ride with a flag, but I'm all about those bright lights.



If I were in a group, I'd probably kill the rear lignts; I'm not too worried about being hit from behind, in any case (I know it happens, but so does getting struck by lightning).



In front, my lights are not bothering anyone (mostly), and that's where the majority of bike vs. car impacts happen anyway.

Chazz 11-11-2012 08:21 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1959 (Post 1010801)
... The WC as nice a trike as it is just doesn't coast as far or as fast as my Carbent did... 
Ward,



I can't compare my WC to a Carbent, but I can compare it to itself, as I'll explain. Recently, I upgraded my wheels to ceramic bearings all around. I can't provide any objective measurements but, my seat of the pants experience is that it has made a dramatic improvement in roll out.

Howard Veit 11-11-2012 08:23 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by doncl (Post 1010903)
Howard, if you gotta ride with the flag, go for it. I want you to stay safe. I personally choose not to ride with a flag, but I'm all about those bright lights.



If I were in a group, I'd probably kill the rear lignts; I'm not too worried about being hit from behind, in any case (I know it happens, but so does getting struck by lightning).



In front, my lights are not bothering anyone (mostly), and that's where the majority of bike vs. car impacts happen anyway. 
Most of the reading I have done regarding bike safety confirms your statement that the majority of bike/car accidents happen up front. I am thinking that flags are for heavy, congested traffic situations. The front flasher is the most important safety addition.

joseph1959 11-11-2012 08:28 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1010920)
Most of the reading I have done regarding bike safety confirms your statement that the majority of bike/car accidents happen up front. I am thinking that flags are for heavy, congested traffic situations. The front flasher is the most important safety addition. 
I know of two hit from behinds here in Ga that resulted in fatalities.

joseph1959 11-11-2012 08:29 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 1010918)
Ward,



I can't compare my WC to a Carbent, but I can compare it to itself, as I'll explain. Recently, I upgraded my wheels to ceramic bearings all around. I can't provide any objective measurements but, my seat of the pants experience is that it has made a dramatic improvement in roll out. 
Interesting...where did you get the bearings?

Howard Veit 11-11-2012 08:52 PM 
Ward,



On your recent Savannah Century, what, if any, safety devices did you use? On Centuries in the country, with lots of other cyclists around, I am tempted to reduce, or eliminate, the lights and flags.



Howard

Jimbo 11-11-2012 08:54 PM 


Quote:
  it has made a dramatic improvement in roll out. 
The ceramics are interesting. But, with my standard 6001 bearings I can just give a tiny flick of a finger to a front wheel and it keeps spinning for a long time. I just don't see how anything can be much of an improvement on that.



Maybe ceramics roll better than steel when loaded?? Or, did you just have some substandard steel bearings beforehand??



This shouldn't be that hard to test if someone has suitable test equipment.

joseph1959 11-11-2012 09:42 PM 
Just my Dinotte taillight I bought from you and a hi viz jersey. At major street crossing I try and go through the intersections with a car as a blocker or with other cyclists.

doncl 11-11-2012 10:15 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1959 (Post 1010925)
I know of two hit from behinds here in Ga that resulted in fatalities. 
Well, that's not invalid, but still...anecdotal. What's the actual numbers, year over year? Doesn't the LAB still track this stuff?



Perhaps I'm wrong, certainly all it takes is one collision to kill you deader than dead, but....you can't eliminate all risks in life either. My sense of it, from the numbers I looked at a decade ago, was that it happens (hit from behind), it's more frequent than say, getting hit by a meteor or a lightning strike, but it's by far a minority of the bike vs. car incidents, not nearly as great a rate of fatalities compared to the risks of riding in a car at freeway speeds.



I stand corrected if there's accumulated hard data that contradicts this.



This is completely anecdotal, but...the only time I've had a car come close to hitting me from behind was when a sports car driver buzzed me when he was annoyed with me (I won't bore you with the details). That's in tens of thousands of miles of vehicular cycling.



Of course, it may be the dynamics of vehicular cycling, and the way motorists act, are very different in Georgia than here in Seattle. I also have to say, the further I am out of the urban center of Seattle, the more nervous I get, as regards the treatment of bikes/trikes by motorists. The Eastside suburbs are far less safe, in my opinion, just based on the experience of riding here and there. I'm less qualified to pass judgment on rural environs.

PaulM 11-12-2012 02:50 AM 
Personally I worry about rear end shunts more on the trike than collisions at the front. I've taken to wearing a high-viz helmet on my commute. I guess that would work well with a very reclined trike like the Vortex. I'd be tempted to dispense with the flag and use two small rear flashers and a high-viz helmet.

Jimbo 11-12-2012 03:28 AM 
I gave up on the flags as being pretty much useless. Plus, they slowed me down. Then I started using two flashing lights on the back. Very visible lights. People started to give me less room when they passed. So I took the lights off and they started giving me more room when they passed. Sheeesh. Maybe they were using the lights as a target, I don't know.



When I was back in the States I bought several Hi Viz Lime Green baseball type hats. I use those now.



A horizontal flag sticking out into the traffic side seems to work the best for flags for me.

joseph1959 11-12-2012 06:19 AM 
Well let me restate it. The Only cycling death within a 25 mile radius of

Where I live in the last 5 years was on a heavily traveled rural highway, broad daylight, two cyclist on the local racing team were struck by a girl in an SUV who was traveling at about 70 mph and never saw them.



My thoughts on this, no taillights and no mirrors both of which I think are beyond necessary for preventing being run over.

Jimbo 11-12-2012 06:36 AM 
mirrors are a must. I have two on each trike. I am constantly checking them. But, there still are times when someone manages to sneak up on me. I think maybe we just have to be fatalistic about the situation. Do whatever makes you happy, but in the end the guy who gets you would probably get you no matter what you do.



Remember, people have rear ended firetrucks with all their lights and sirens going.

D.George 11-12-2012 07:20 AM 
How much do you think a flag slows you down? I have ridden both ways and never noticed a difference. Sure it must have some drag, but enough to notice?

Jimbo 11-12-2012 08:00 AM 
depends how fast you are going. Once you get above 20 mph very small things start to make a big difference.



And some flags are way worse than others.

chuckchander 11-12-2012 08:12 AM 
The main problem I've found with being slower (relative to other riders) is the smaller window of time for sleep on longer rides.



On the Perth-Albany-Perth 1200 in 2010 I finished in 87hrs30mins. Rolling time was 67hrs30mins. Of the 20hrs off the trike, near 10 were actually in a bed, and I reckon I only slept 8 of those. Not having to worry about balance was a big plus in the dark when I was seeing Elvis on the highway.



I tend to ride alone also, I just ride to a different rhythm to the bikes......wweeeeeeeeeeeee

Chazz 11-12-2012 08:17 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1959 (Post 1010927)
Interesting...where did you get the bearings? 
My local bike shop ordered them and installed them for me. If you're interested, here's the contact info:



Santos Trailhead Bike Shop, 8900 S. US Hwy 441, Ocala FL 34480. The owner is Chris Fernandez and the phone number is (352) 307-2453.



They've got a lot of experience working on my Hypersport. :curious:

cjs1948 11-12-2012 08:58 AM 
Special flag.



Quote:
Originally Posted by D.George (Post 1011046)
How much do you think a flag slows you down? I have ridden both ways and never noticed a difference. Sure it must have some drag, but enough to notice? 
I'll give flag users an option for the most visible yet small flag that you can make. Yes, make, as you can't buy one.



Get a small light colored nerf ball--Walmart is the only place I'm aware of where you can get these--and spray it with Krylon Glow Orange (only available in tiny hobby cans--flourescent colors are NOT as bright). Attach securely--perhaps best by skewering--to the top of your pole.



This flag is visible for up to a quarter mile or so, is visible from all sides, visibility doesn't change with wind, and has fairly low drag. While this can be used as a topper for other flags, it is quite effective by itself.

joseph1959 11-12-2012 09:21 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 1011060)
My local bike shop ordered them and installed them for me. If you're interested, here's the contact info:



Santos Trailhead Bike Shop, 8900 S. US Hwy 441, Ocala FL 34480. The owner is Chris Fernandez and the phone number is (352) 307-2453.



They've got a lot of experience working on my Hypersport. :curious: 
That's good to know! Thanks.

3TracksintheSand 11-12-2012 09:46 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by doncl (Post 1010961)
Well, that's not invalid, but still...anecdotal. What's the actual numbers, year over year? Doesn't the LAB still track this stuff?



Perhaps I'm wrong, certainly all it takes is one collision to kill you deader than dead, but....you can't eliminate all risks in life either. My sense of it, from the numbers I looked at a decade ago, was that it happens (hit from behind), it's more frequent than say, getting hit by a meteor or a lightning strike, but it's by far a minority of the bike vs. car incidents, not nearly as great a rate of fatalities compared to the risks of riding in a car at freeway speeds.



I stand corrected if there's accumulated hard data that contradicts this.



This is completely anecdotal, but...the only time I've had a car come close to hitting me from behind was when a sports car driver buzzed me when he was annoyed with me (I won't bore you with the details). That's in tens of thousands of miles of vehicular cycling.



Of course, it may be the dynamics of vehicular cycling, and the way motorists act, are very different in Georgia than here in Seattle. I also have to say, the further I am out of the urban center of Seattle, the more nervous I get, as regards the treatment of bikes/trikes by motorists. The Eastside suburbs are far less safe, in my opinion, just based on the experience of riding here and there. I'm less qualified to pass judgment on rural environs. 
I think the major difference in getting hit from behind is that, in many cases, you have no chance to react to the situation as it unfolds. Hit from the front or forward quarter, and at least you see what is coming and might have a chance at an evasive or mitigating maneuver. In spite of trying my best to always know what is behind me, I have been surprised by a cyclist more than once as they pass without calling out the overtake. Cars, at least you can hear them, but, not always in time to know they are aiming at you. Does this make sense?



George

Peter_C 11-12-2012 10:48 AM 
I've got to agree that a trike is way more comfortable on longer rides. Speed isn't an issue for me as I am simply not fast, but it (the trike) allows me to actually *do* a century, where in fact I do not think I could even do one on a 2-wheeler.



The balance issue when tired is very real to me, and my long 17 hour century was not uncomfortable at all for me. I am hoping that next year I can bring my time down, as this was also my first year over 1000 miles, finishing a bit over 1700 miles for 2012.

D.George 11-12-2012 10:55 AM 
" Once you get above 20 mph....".



No wonder I never noticed it.

joseph1959 11-12-2012 10:58 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3TracksintheSand (Post 1011092)
I think the major difference in getting hit from behind is that, in many cases, you have no chance to react

George 
I try to be proactive with my mirror as well. I mostly ride very unpopulated rural highways and I try to scan behind me constantly. As soon as I see an approaching car I begin a side to side motion as I pedal to grab the drivers attention. I want to see a reaction of some sort. The car slowing down or starting to move over or both. If not I am heading offroad.



I have only had to hit the shoulder one time. Two dump trucks, one coming towards me and one from behind. Neither one was slowing or giving any indication they saw me. I bailed, of course i was on my Carbent with my all carbon Corima wheels and the front one was broken when I hit huge rock I didn't see in the grass. Small price to pay IMO.

Terrafirma 11-12-2012 11:06 AM 
I have done a number of century rides on my trike and can't really imagine doing one on an upright bike...



As to your CON bullet point of SOCIALIZATION...

that is fixed by getting a trike team together to ride the event!



In our local Tour De Cure event We have had a team of trikes for the past two years... great fun to do a century ride like that!



Here is our ride (part one of two) this year:




yep we were slow... not the slowest but one of the last in... but we had a great time!

patrike 11-12-2012 11:15 AM 
Did the unicyclist do the century? That is hardcore.

Terrafirma 11-12-2012 11:37 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by patrike (Post 1011126)
Did the unicyclist do the century? That is hardcore. 
I talked to him a little at the start line... he has done the 32 miler a few years in a row on the unicycle! Yeah, pretty hard core!



So, he did not do the big climbs you see in the video in the hills... BUT HE DID RIDE OVER THOSE TWO BIG HARBOR BRIDGES on that unicycle!



;-)

Howard Veit 11-12-2012 11:58 AM 
Glenn,



Great video..thanks. I have done Centuries with other trikers. We used to have a group...Georgia Trikers....that has since disbanded. I agree that the best way to do these rides is with other trike riders. We had a ball.



I am beginning to think that riding trikes is a separate sport. Comparing speeds of trikes with two wheelers is comparing apples with oranges. I finished on Saturday about the same time as a couple of guys on Carbon Aero 2s, but fitness levels must have been a lot different.



Don't think I can do 100 miles on a unicycle.

logbuilder 11-12-2012 12:00 PM 
Spot on!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrafirma (Post 1011122)
yep we were slow... not the slowest but one of the last in... but we had a great time! 
Establish a cycling goal that is within reach yet remains challenging. No two riders will have exactly the same desires and that becomes increasingly obvious in large group rides where clusters of riders stay together because each is compromising in order to be in a group. With trikes, I personally find that to HAVE A GREAT TIME on a long ride, trikes offer a lot of common ground with which to 'share', and that feeling of belonging goes a very long way to overcome ride distance.



One thing Glenn failed to mention is the undeniable ability to 'fidget' while riding a trike! Taking pictures, observing the scenery and even something as simple as munching on a snack can improve the ability to travel further with minimal boredom WITH THE ADDED SAFETY OF a STABLE RIDE!



For the cycle jock who thinks being first or the fastest is the only way to win should try a trike and increase the challenge! If that's still not enough to claim a personal 'king of the hill' award, add flags, lights, panniers to go along with that always present 'trike smile'!

Terrafirma 11-12-2012 12:10 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1011144)
Great video..thanks. I have done Centuries with other trikers... We had a ball. 
Yeah, that's the way to do em! I also did the MS ride this year (another video on my youtube channel ) about a month ago with a few other trike riders. We were going to do the 100 that first day, but settled for the Metric Century because the climbing really did us in earl!



But it was a lot of fun.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1011144)
I am beginning to think that riding trikes is a separate sport. 
Well maybe... but the thing I like about these charity centuries is that it really is about having fun and finishing... not so much about time. I like to go fast and do the best I can but don't feel the need to compete.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1011144)
Don't think I can do 100 miles on a unicycle. 
I don't think I could do 10 feet on a unicycle!



I have never seen one in a full sponsored event / century ride, but I do know of a unicyclist out here who did do a century on his own, to benefit the American Cancer Society... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukMrYe9W7bA



also seen in this video by one of my trike buddies who met him along part of his ride.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D04URDvw7-A

Terrafirma 11-12-2012 12:20 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by logbuilder (Post 1011146)
...For the cycle jock who thinks being first or the fastest is the only way to win should try a trike and increase the challenge! ... 
I think it is pretty funny when some other cyclists on these rides ask me what my trike weighs... and then look at me like I am crazy.



I would like to see what a similarly fit, or better fit road cyclist would do against me if we were both on trikes. But once you are used to the recumbent/trike position and riding techniques... weight on a trike is not as much of a deal. (it sure makes the downhills fun anyway!)

Howard Veit 11-12-2012 12:30 PM 
Video How To

Glenn,



If you haven't already done so, it would be great if you could do a post, or start a thread, on how you manage those great video shots while riding the trike. What equipment do you use? I would love to be able to do videos of my trike events, but aside from a helmet mount, have no idea how to get the shots and angles as you do.

Terrafirma 11-12-2012 12:48 PM 
(I don't want to hijack your thread here and go off topic... so... I'll keep this short) I have had several people ask me about that and want me to make a video of what I do and how I do my video shots. I have posted responses to questions on BROL... not sure if I ever started a dedicated thread. I'll PM you for now.





But yeah... (back a little more on topic...) I especially love the trike as a platform to shoot photos and video on a century ride! It is tough to do that on a two wheeler ... or at least tougher.

scbvideoboy 11-12-2012 01:27 PM 


Quote:
  Interesting...where did you get the bearings? 
Look up/ google Boco Bearings a large selection of bearings and ceramics. They even have lists for various hub makers..ie Shimano. Cost varies with tolerances and shielding types.

I'll be buying ceramics for the FWD. It'll be interesting to see the results. The miller bearing guy said only a "racer" would see any benefits from the extra cost. Weight is only a few grams lighter for the hydrids (steel housing/races and ceramic balls)

ColdAsIce 11-12-2012 03:10 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by doncl (Post 1010961)
My sense of it, from the numbers I looked at a decade ago, was that it happens (hit from behind), it's more frequent than say, getting hit by a meteor or a lightning strike, but it's by far a minority of the bike vs. car incidents, not nearly as great a rate of fatalities compared to the risks of riding in a car at freeway speeds. 
I think something that is more true today than it was 10 years ago is people texting/talking-on-phone while driving, which adds a dimension of vulnerability that is out of our control. Users are jolted either by the accident, or seeing something in advance (like a flag, car or pedestrian) that jolts them out of it.



Video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DebhWD6ljZs

Eric C. 11-12-2012 05:44 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo (Post 1011022)
I gave up on the flags as being pretty much useless. Plus, they slowed me down. Then I started using two flashing lights on the back. Very visible lights. People started to give me less room when they passed. So I took the lights off and they started giving me more room when they passed. Sheeesh. Maybe they were using the lights as a target, I don't know.



When I was back in the States I bought several Hi Viz Lime Green baseball type hats. I use those now.



A horizontal flag sticking out into the traffic side seems to work the best for flags for me. 
Maybe they were indeed using them as a target, unintentionally. Per Grant Peterson (owner/founder of Rivendell Bicycle Works), author of "Just Ride":

"Warning: your blinky light can kill you. Blinking lights lull drivers into target fixation—the tendency to stare at something that stands out and connect with it. Roberto Clemente used target fixation to hit baseballs, airplane pilots use it to steer their planes at night. To nobody’s surprise, it works. But in cycling, it’s a double-edged sword, because you go where you look and so do car drivers. This has two major ramifications. One: When you’re riding around a corner at high speed, aware of the ditch with your name on it, you look at the ditch the way you’d look at anything dangerous, and looking at it makes you steer toward it. Two: When you’re riding at night with your red taillight blinking, thinking you’re safe because you’re visible, a tired or drunk commuter in an SUV locks on to your flashing light, maybe thinking it’s a distant car he should follow, and turns his wheel ever so slightly to follow his tracking eyes. Highway patrol officers deal with this all the time. Their flashing roof lights are beacons in the night to drunks. You can see the results on YouTube.

Solution 1: Practice looking where you want to go, not where you don’t want to go. Successful cornering will reinforce this. You can read more about cornering in “Corner like Jackie Robinson”.

Solution 2: Don’t let your blinky light blink. By keeping it on steady mode, you’ll use up the battery faster, but you’ll be around to buy more. Don’t be cheap and dead."

motoman 11-12-2012 05:52 PM 
Funny how many people who have never tried ceramic bearings can't see how they would make much of a difference, and how people who have tried them almost always like them and thought they were worth the money.



I did before and after tests on a roll out test section of road, and they made a measurable and huge difference. They also felt faster. They also boosted my top speed in various well know sections of my commute. But if you are not into speed, they are definitely not worth the money.



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Terrafirma 11-12-2012 06:05 PM 
I think this thread is drifting off topic.

Howard Veit 11-12-2012 06:19 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrafirma (Post 1011294)
I think this thread is drifting off topic. 
I raised lots of issues with this thread, and I appreciate the feedback. I would be especially interested in assessments of trikes as long distance machines.

georgec 11-12-2012 06:38 PM 
Little argument here with Howard's thoughtful analysis, but, for me the big difference in using a trike for long rides is the creation of a tourist attitude. On two wheels I'm aware of surroundings, but only that, aware. One the trike I turn into a pure tourist even in familiar locales. My head swivels like a New England leaf peeper. I often hit the brakes and turn around for repeats of interesting scenes and objects.

ccroy2001 11-12-2012 07:30 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by georgec (Post 1011312)
Little argument here with Howard's thoughtful analysis, but, for me the big difference in using a trike for long rides is the creation of a tourist attitude. On two wheels I'm aware of surroundings, but only that, aware. One the trike I turn into a pure tourist even in familiar locales. My head swivels like a New England leaf peeper. I often hit the brakes and turn around for repeats of interesting scenes and objects. 
That is an excellent description of how my trike makes me feel. I've tried to explain to bicyclists that I climb slow in a trike, but don't really care. I just sit there and spin in whatever gear feels best. If it's my low gear at 2mph then I look around and notice all sorts of things I'd don't usually see. Even on local roads I've ridden 100's of times I notice things more on the trike.



A recumbent bike is close 2nd, I see a lot more than when I was riding an upright. Riding an upright eventually I'd get tried and get that tunnel vision looking down at the road in front of me.



It's also could be a safety factor on a long ride near the end when you're tired. You might notice hazard on a trike before you'd see it on an upright.



Anyway, my longest trike ride was only 60 miles so far. I did one century on my Bacchetta and felt way better at the end than I did on an upright.

Howard Veit 11-12-2012 07:37 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by georgec (Post 1011312)
Little argument here with Howard's thoughtful analysis, but, for me the big difference in using a trike for long rides is the creation of a tourist attitude. On two wheels I'm aware of surroundings, but only that, aware. One the trike I turn into a pure tourist even in familiar locales. My head swivels like a New England leaf peeper. I often hit the brakes and turn around for repeats of interesting scenes and objects. 
Trikers may be more touring oriented. Since I see so few trikes at Century events, I am wondering what percentage of folks who buy trikes even consider organized events like metrics and 100 milers. Some of the performance oriented trikers that I know have given up on trikes, and switched to two wheel bents to get more speed.



On a trike it is tempting to spend more time "smelling roses". During my Century on Saturday, the pastoral scenery was fabulous, and I savored every minute of it. Frankly, I would rather do that then put my head down and hammer, although I did a little of that also during the ride. I am even thinking of doing a 'Larry' and bringing my camera along.

rockmurf 11-12-2012 07:50 PM 
I am kind of chuckling reading about the speed that a trike gives up. If this is about how fast you can go then why are you riding a bike/trike in the first place?

steamer 11-12-2012 07:55 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmurf (Post 1011327)
I am kind of chuckling reading about the speed that a trike gives up. If this is about how fast you can go then why are you riding a bike/trike in the first place? 
?? Because we are talking about what is, at it's core, an athletic endeavor.



Are you talking about something other than an athletic endeavor?



If so, :stop: wrong forum.

Jimbo 11-12-2012 09:06 PM 


Quote:
  Funny how many people who have never tried ceramic bearings can't see how they would make much of a difference, and how people who have tried them almost always like them and thought they were worth the money.



I did before and after tests on a roll out test section of road, and they made a measurable and huge difference. They also felt faster. They also boosted my top speed in various well know sections of my commute. But if you are not into speed, they are definitely not worth the money. 
Ok, if you did the tests what were the numbers?? Also, what bearings did you replace with the ceramics? Not all bearings are the same.



You say they boosted your top speed. How much? I'm very much into speed and am at the stage now where I have to start looking for every tiny little bit of help I can get.



Right now I'm pretty much plateaued on my high, wide and heavy T at 22+ mph on my "sort of " level time trials. The new QNT should be considerably faster. I'll know in a couple of weeks. So, if the ceramics give measurable improvements, what are the numbers?? Those things cost a fortune and I live on Social Security. But, if they will add .5 mph to my top speed then I will have to consider going on a starvation diet for a couple of months to get some.

Peter_C 11-12-2012 11:27 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmurf (Post 1011327)
I am kind of chuckling reading about the speed that a trike gives up. If this is about how fast you can go then why are you riding a bike/trike in the first place? 
It's because I was able to do something on my trike under my own power that I would never be able to do either on foot, or on a 2-wheeler. For many people, they find that they 'give up' 2-3mph on a trike vs a bike, but to many of us, the higher comfort level makes it a very fair trade-off. It's the bike OR trike that you will ride that counts.



Perhaps you need to reread the first post, as this thread isn't about 'how fast' we can go, it's about what the OP sees as the primary differences between the two modes.

Doug Huffman 11-13-2012 05:55 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo (Post 1011349)
But, if they will add .5 mph to my top speed then I will have to consider going on a starvation diet for a couple of months to get some. 
Confounding whatever statistics you might enjoy. Was it the weight loss or the new bearings? I'll bet on the former.

ThaiExpedition 11-13-2012 09:58 AM 
Have you guys ever figured out something to help with the foot pain. I get it right in front of the balls of my feet. I have already moved my cleats around trying both extremes. I had heard that moving them as far back as possible might help but that didn't do it for me. I have ridden my Expedition 3 days of back to back 100 milers while doing a short tour here in Thailand. My feet took a month to recover.

Howard Veit 11-13-2012 10:51 AM 
Foot pain



Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaiExpedition (Post 1011489)
Have you guys ever figured out something to help with the foot pain. I get it right in front of the balls of my feet. I have already moved my cleats around trying both extremes. I had heard that moving them as far back as possible might help but that didn't do it for me. I have ridden my Expedition 3 days of back to back 100 milers while doing a short tour here in Thailand. My feet took a month to recover. 
It is a tough problem that I haven't solved completely. I still get pain due to swelling feet and nerve compression on long rides, especially on hot days. The pain kicks in sooner on hot days. As another poster stated, the pressure on the balls of our feet are greater on trikes, seemingly.



The good news is that I have 'managed' the situation. I now have road cycling shoes with Look Keo pedals that seem to spread the pressure and alleviate the situation. The shoes (Garneaus) have very stiff soles, and ventilation mesh in strategic positions. The shoes are expensive, but they are worth it. I have never found sandals or mountain bike shoes that do the job of relieving the pain. The shoes also have straps that allow me to adjust the width of the shoe during riding, which seems to help when my feet expand. I also have been fit with orthotics by a Podiatrist. The orthotics keep my feet from twisting during the pedal strokes. Overall, they keep my feet more stable. I find it best to keep the balls of my feet directly over the pedal. Moving the cleats back not only didn't help, but seemed to make the problem worse.



My podiatrist is also a cyclist, and one day while we were riding together, he suggested that I shorten the boom on my trike a bit so I wasn't stretching, ever so slightly during the pedal stroke. The stretching caused me to twist my food slightly as I reached the maximum pedal stroke. The twisting contributed to nerve compression.



Having done all of this, the problem is alleviated quite a bit, but not eliminated. So, when the foot pain strikes, I stop, take off my shoes, message my feet, walk barefoot in a cool grassy spot, if one is available, and then get back on the trike. This relieves the pain for usually 10-15 miles. Then I do the grass walking bit again. During last Saturday's Century ride, I had to stop three times after mile 70 to walk in the grass to relieve the food pain. It was a cool day.



By the way the problem is worse during very hilly rides.



Dipping my bare feet in cool water also seems to help. No total solutions though.

benthead 11-14-2012 12:21 AM 
Howard,



How would you feel if your Vortex was five pounds lighter? Do you think that would make a significant difference?

Howard Veit 11-14-2012 06:39 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011761)
Howard,



How would you feel if your Vortex was five pounds lighter? Do you think that would make a significant difference? 
No doubt it would make a difference. Need a lighter rear wheel (sent u a pm) Also need to ditch the flag. I am wed to the Dinotte lights. I have installed DV short cranks and ti bb. I am thinking of switching to the Speedfil F2 hydration system. I am all ears for other ways to make the V+ even lighter and better especially for the longer rides.

BentBierz 11-14-2012 08:37 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by patrike (Post 1011126)
Did the unicyclist do the century? That is hardcore. 
i did the Seattle to Portland (STP) ride back in 2002 and a unicyclist completed the two day 200 mile ride. At the time, I was riding my Airborne DF and remember passing (and being passed) by those funny looking things I later learned to be recumbents. Saw people pulling trailers so that they could bring their favorite huge teddy bear, small dogs in baskets, etc. but the unicyclist was the most memorable.

BentBierz 11-14-2012 08:46 AM 
But more to the point of the thread, I struggle with the "slow and comfortable" vs. "quicker but still more comfortable than a DF" dilemma. I love my trike but love speed also.

logbuilder 11-14-2012 09:57 AM 
So......



Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBierz (Post 1011819)
But more to the point of the thread, I struggle with the "slow and comfortable" vs. "quicker but still more comfortable than a DF" dilemma. I love my trike but love speed also. 
You have options with a trike......................., enjoy BOTH!



Kinda like, swim (Navy) v. wade (Coast Guard)!



Ed USCG

Chazz 11-14-2012 10:54 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011761)
Howard,



How would you feel if your Vortex was five pounds lighter? Do you think that would make a significant difference? 
Intriguing! Are you considering offering a sub 24# V+ for sale? I bet that could be done, but at quite a price, I'm sure.

benthead 11-14-2012 11:07 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 1011866)
Intriguing! Are you considering offering a sub 24# V+ for sale? I bet that could be done, but at quite a price, I'm sure. 
No, I'm working on a sub-23# Carbent trike with a 700c rear wheel and 20" front wheels. The position will be similar to the Vortex, but with a higher BB.

benthead 11-14-2012 11:08 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 1011866)
Intriguing! Are you considering offering a sub 24# V+ for sale? I bet that could be done, but at quite a price, I'm sure. 
There is no way to get a Vortex down to 24 pounds. We have thrown just about every lightweight component at it that we can, and the lightest we get is about 27 pounds. To get to 24, we would have to remove the front wheels, and then all you have is a unicycle!

3TracksintheSand 11-14-2012 11:35 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011871)
There is no way to get a Vortex down to 24 pounds. We have thrown just about every lightweight component at it that we can, and the lightest we get is about 27 pounds. To get to 24, we would have to remove the front wheels, and then all you have is a unicycle! 
I wonder. Have you seen Holey Spokes? Imagine what magic Bruce could do if you sent a frame to him? Of course, even with being as much a fan of Catrikes as Bruce is, I wonder if he would return the frame after test riding it!



http://bicyclepatents.com/?s=holey+spokes



Scroll to the bottom of the link for pictures.



George

ccroy2001 11-14-2012 11:39 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011870)
No, I'm working on a sub-23# Carbent trike with a 700c rear wheel and 20" front wheels. The position will be similar to the Vortex, but with a higher BB. 

Dana, you're like a crack dealer! :nono:



............except using your product makes the addict healthier! :agree:

mclaus 11-14-2012 11:42 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011870)
No, I'm working on a sub-23# Carbent trike with a 700c rear wheel and 20" front wheels. The position will be similar to the Vortex, but with a higher BB. 
Dana, you are such a tease! When might we get some more info about this unicorn?

Chazz 11-14-2012 01:34 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011870)
No, I'm working on a sub-23# Carbent trike with a 700c rear wheel and 20" front wheels. The position will be similar to the Vortex, but with a higher BB. 
Wow!!! Can't wait to see that come out! Any preliminary info? Don't want to sidetrack this thread more than it already has been. Perhaps a new thread is in order on your subject Carbent trike?

benthead 11-14-2012 07:25 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaus (Post 1011894)
Dana, you are such a tease! When might we get some more info about this unicorn? 
Patience, grasshopper, patience.... :)

BentBierz 11-14-2012 09:01 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by logbuilder (Post 1011847)


Kinda like, swim (Navy) v. wade (Coast Guard)!



Ed USCG 
OK...completely off topic and probably lost on many of the riders on this forum but that is FUNNY!



Carbent trike!?! When will the craziness end in trying to separate me from my money???



Actually, ,moreso than carbon, I am a huge fan of titanium (have some holding L4-S1 together) and would love to have something like my Hp Scorpion FS in Ti.

jughead63 11-14-2012 09:55 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011870)
No, I'm working on a sub-23# Carbent trike with a 700c rear wheel and 20" front wheels. The position will be similar to the Vortex, but with a higher BB. 
All I have to say to that is "WOW".:shocked:

Howard Veit 11-14-2012 10:36 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1012013)
Patience, grasshopper, patience.... :) 
I can't wait:rolleyes: Need one for my next Century.

3TracksintheSand 11-15-2012 09:33 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1012061)
I can't wait:rolleyes: Need one for my next Century. 
Now, that is optimisin. I remember as a child imagining that I would be around for this century (and my second trike, I might add) but, to be around in 2100?? That would require cryonics for me. Still, you've got me thinking....... :thinking:



George

SBTriker 11-15-2012 09:59 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1011871)
There is no way to get a Vortex down to 24 pounds. We have thrown just about every lightweight component at it that we can, and the lightest we get is about 27 pounds. To get to 24, we would have to remove the front wheels, and then all you have is a unicycle! 
To get down to 24 lbs... Assuming that you used the same light components that you did on the 27 lb Vortex, your Carbent frame, seat and steering will have to be 3 lbs lighter than the Vortex's. I'm very anxious to see how you do this.



You know who'll be first in line for one of these trikes. Keep us posted on the progress.

Trsnrtr 11-15-2012 07:54 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by SBTriker (Post 1012176)
You know who'll be first in line for one of these trikes. Keep us posted on the progress. 
Yeah, Howard, and then maybe I'll buy his Vortex! :D

Howard Veit 11-15-2012 09:00 PM 
Carbon Carbent



Quote:
Originally Posted by Trsnrtr (Post 1012327)
Yeah, Howard, and then maybe I'll buy his Vortex! :D 
Well, you can be sure that if the Carbon Carbent costs less than $10,000:wacko:, I will be in line to buy one. Sorry, but there's no way that I would part with my Vortex+. Frankly, I have my doubts as to whether any trike will be better than the Vortex+, even one designed by Dana.:wiseguy: But I'm sure I will be there to test this hypothesis.

benthead 11-16-2012 10:42 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1012339)
Well, you can be sure that if the Carbon Carbent costs less than $10,000:wacko:, I will be in line to buy one. Sorry, but there's no way that I would part with my Vortex+. Frankly, I have my doubts as to whether any trike will be better than the Vortex+, even one designed by Dana.:wiseguy: But I'm sure I will be there to test this hypothesis. 
The base price will be far below the $10K mark. I will know more about the price once I have a better idea of the labor involved and how many jigs and molds I have to make....

Zach 11-17-2012 12:22 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by benthead (Post 1012656)
The base price will be far below the $10K mark. I will know more about the price once I have a better idea of the labor involved and how many jigs and molds I have to make.... 
I look forward to it! Sounds great. Some people like to point out that none of the current "performance" trikes have seat angles below 25 degrees. So it would be nice if the seat angle could be adjusted down to the low 20 degree range. The Greenspeed GLR and SLR had fixed 20 degree seat angles and the ICE Micro and Monster seat angles could be adjusted down to 20 degrees.



I am curious if you have decided yet if this trike will have direct or indirect steering. It seems like that is a decision that would have to be made early on with regards to mould or jig design.

rydabent 11-17-2012 09:39 AM 
One thing to understand about bents is that since you dont have to use energy to support your upper body, that energy saved can be feed to the legs to ride faster or further. Then with trikes no energy is used to balance so that energy too can be fed to the legs.

joseph1959 11-17-2012 12:26 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by rydabent (Post 1012747)
One thing to understand about bents is that since you dont have to use energy to support your upper body, that energy saved can be feed to the legs to ride faster or further. Then with trikes no energy is used to balance so that energy too can be fed to the legs. 
I doesn't completely agree. I find, especially on the WC that I am using my body constantly for balance when riding hard and fast. Most of those roads I ride are slanted downwards towards the shoulder as well making you actively adjust your body angle. IMO.

dragnfly31 11-17-2012 11:32 PM 
Glad u enjoyed your ride I try one century a/year,. I finally did it last year this year was w wash out.

tpy2012 11-18-2012 01:51 AM 
I'm new to the trike. I bought a Catrike 700, then an expedition. I loved the 700 but had too much gravel to ride over,so I went to the expedition. I added drop out extensions, then a 700c rear wheel. I like speed also. I graduated to the trike from a OCLV trek. Love the trek, but can't ride it for >20 miles or I get perineal numbness. (numb butt) I have done several solo centuries, I have ridden >4000 miles since the last week in July of this year. I did not have an odometer prior to that. There is less of a fatigue factor on the trike. In my opinion, a cadence of 80 to 85 is the best most people fit riders average on a trike. Sure, we can spin faster by gearing down on the uphills and get up to 120-130 on some downhills. Most of the less fit trike riders I've ridden with tend to average in the 50 - 60 rpm/cadence range. I have not been successful at transferring all my conserved energy, from not having to balance, into power to the pedals. But there is certainly less of a fatigue issue.

dragnfly31 11-18-2012 02:42 AM 
OK to those of you whom love to go fast give this a thought you all should try the nuvinci N 360 cvp out that will give you all more speed so you don't have held to 7,8,or 9, speeds as it says on my signature terratrike Path infinity. That's how many speeds or gears I have.

Pugpuller 11-19-2012 01:59 PM 
I purchased a 2011 ICE Vortex a year ago this month (first ever trike), and have logged nearly 3800 miles, including 5 centuries. I also took it to RAGBRAI this year, logging about 500 miles that week alone. Here's my "century" experience in comparison with doing the same rides for years on a DF.



Comfort: Absolutely cannot be beat. I finish the rides more relaxed, pretty much free of pain (other than the usual tired legs...) I have had to learn to be deliberate on my pedaling technique to be sure I am pulling and pushing, otherwise I can experience pain on the bottoms of my feet (use clipless pedals with a stiff shoe).



Flag: Usually leave it at home on group rides - there are plenty of other riders to attrack the attention of drivers.



Lights: Still like them anytime. I run a set of Dinotte's front and back - but the 1200 lumen front is my favorite - it visually announces my presence.



Bell: I have a large, old fashioned bike bell that sounds like an ice cream truck - very helpful for letting slower riders know that I am approaching and overtaking them.



Speed: Agree I am around 2 mph slower than on my DF bike, but I am relearning that it's all about the journey, not being the first to arrive.



Fairing : Use a Windwrap fairing - love it too. On cold days, helps keep my feet warmer. Helps with headwinds as well.



Sociability: This is where I noticed a huge difference over my DF. Sitting so relatively low, it is harder to carry on a conversation with the DF majority. This was a major drawback on a ride like RAGBRAI which is very social in nature. However, the majority of my rides are solo. Just one of the trade offs.



Overall - love the ride. But I am in the market for a GRR just to provide a bit of variety during the year.



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Howard Veit 11-19-2012 04:36 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugpuller (Post 1013454)
I purchased a 2011 ICE Vortex a year ago this month (first ever trike), and have logged nearly 3800 miles, including 5 centuries. I also took it to RAGBRAI this year, logging about 500 miles that week alone. Here's my "century" experience in comparison with doing the same rides for years on a DF.



Comfort: Absolutely cannot be beat. I finish the rides more relaxed, pretty much free of pain (other than the usual tired legs...) I have had to learn to be deliberate on my pedaling technique to be sure I am pulling and pushing, otherwise I can experience pain on the bottoms of my feet (use clipless pedals with a stiff shoe).



Flag: Usually leave it at home on group rides - there are plenty of other riders to attrack the attention of drivers.



Lights: Still like them anytime. I run a set of Dinotte's front and back - but the 1200 lumen front is my favorite - it visually announces my presence.



Bell: I have a large, old fashioned bike bell that sounds like an ice cream truck - very helpful for letting slower riders know that I am approaching and overtaking them.



Speed: Agree I am around 2 mph slower than on my DF bike, but I am relearning that it's all about the journey, not being the first to arrive.



Fairing : Use a Windwrap fairing - love it too. On cold days, helps keep my feet warmer. Helps with headwinds as well.



Sociability: This is where I noticed a huge difference over my DF. Sitting so relatively low, it is harder to carry on a conversation with the DF majority. This was a major drawback on a ride like RAGBRAI which is very social in nature. However, the majority of my rides are solo. Just one of the trade offs.



Overall - love the ride. But I am in the market for a GRR just to provide a bit of variety during the year. 
You summed it up nicely. Frankly, at least for now, I have weaned myself off of two wheels. The trike on Centuries is sooo nice. I may take your advice and leave the flag home on group rides. I too like the Dinottes, 1200 lumen on the front and 400L on the back. Provides a great sense of security.



With regards to sociability, I am working on getting a trike group started. Riding with a group of other trikers is a blast. Our pace lines are fantastic.



Will I go back to two wheels? Hard to say, but now I am really enjoying the trike. Plan on doing many, many miles, several centuries and beyond next year.



There is another thread on the potential new Carbent Trike. If bent manufacturers start trying to out do each other with performance-oriented trikes, that would be great. I can't wait to see the next generation of fast trikes.

Marc S. 11-19-2012 05:19 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo (Post 1010937)
The ceramics are interesting. But, with my standard 6001 bearings I can just give a tiny flick of a finger to a front wheel and it keeps spinning for a long time. I just don't see how anything can be much of an improvement on that.



Maybe ceramics roll better than steel when loaded?? Or, did you just have some substandard steel bearings beforehand??



This shouldn't be that hard to test if someone has suitable test equipment. 
I haven't looked into ceramic ball bearings yet but did anybody found test data how much better ceramic ball bearings roll compared to steel ball bearings?



FAG claims their new (?) 'Generation C' steel ball bearings are 50% quiter and have 35% less friction than their normal bearings. http://www.fag-generationc.info/en/generation-c/

Since FAG invented ball bearing grinding machines 125 years ago and is a known high quality bearing manufacturer (German I might add) I'll take a wild guess and assume their 'normal' quality bearings are at least as good as the stuff from Asia.

My Sturmey-Archer 70mm front hubs sport IJK ball bearings from Japan btw

logbuilder 11-19-2012 06:07 PM 
Agree...., agree...., agree....(Dinotte) agree...., but



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugpuller (Post 1013454)
Sociability: This is where I noticed a huge difference over my DF. Sitting so relatively low, it is harder to carry on a conversation with the DF majority. This was a major drawback on a ride like RAGBRAI which is very social in nature. However, the majority of my rides are solo. Just one of the trade offs. 
UNLESS....................., you're with other trikers!

Peter_C 11-19-2012 06:50 PM 
Trikes are like DFs in some ways

Just like in a DF group, I find there are both faster and slower riders.



On a trike, I do well to maintain an 8mph average on mostly flat ground. Many trike riders I know are more comfortable at the 10-12mph average, so just like with DFs, finding others to ride with, that also go the same speed you want to go is key.



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My New ICE Vortex+ Trike After One Year

Here is the review I posted on Bentrider Online for my one year old Inspired Cycling Engineering recumbent trike. Following the review, are several comments added by my friends on Bentrider.


I unpacked my Vortex+, purchased from PowerOn Cycling, on April 1, 2012, so the time is right for a one year anniversary report. I received the machine three weeks after the order. PowerOn provided excellent service. The price today is about $5550. I paid a little less a year ago. I admit upfront that I love this trike, and think it is worth every penny. I rarely go for a ride that I don't get thumbs up and "cool bike" salutations, especially now that I have added the Renn Disc. Nevertheless, I will attempt objectivity.

Last winter, when I was considering the purchase, I compared the Vortex+ against the Catrike 700. Test rode both and posted a thread requesting input from my BROL friends. There were ample opinions supporting each trike. I chose the Vortex because a) I have owned ICE trikes in the past and liked them all. ICE service is outstanding. b) The Vortex has a hardshell seat, which I prefer. c) I prefer ICE's indirect steering setups over Catrike's direct steering.

Overall, the Vortex gives the rider all the well-documented advantages of a trike plus a high level of performance. This is not a particularly versatile trike, however. I doubt whether I would use it as a tourer, commuter or shopper. Carrying stuff is a challenge, however, I have added Radical Low Racer bags to carry the bare essentials for long rides. Here is my assessment:

Comfort - In my year of ownership, I have ridden seven centuries, and several other metric length rides. I had no serious comfort issues, but two things should be noted. First, the hardshell seat plus the rigid frame, both positive performance characteristics, offer much 'road feel', to put it mildly. The Vortex ride is not for everyone. One of my Metric Centuries was over some very rough roads, and I suffered a bit. The rough roads also slowed me down. At the time, I was running Schwalbe Durano tires on the front and a Schwalbe Ultremo ZX on the back, all pumped up to 115 psi. Others have reported a better Vortex ride using wider, softer tires like the Kojaks. I haven't tried this.

Six weeks or so ago, I switched the Duranos to Ultremo ZX 406 front tires. I notice no difference in ride quality, but a noticeable increase in speed. However, my 406 Ultremos started shedding threads on the sidewall after about 1200 miles. The tires were replaced under warranty by Schwalbe. The jury is still out regarding which front tires I will use. The Ultremos are expensive. I have been pleased with the performance and the durability of the Ultremo 700 tires. I have been getting about 2000 miles, which is acceptable for a performance tire.

The other comfort issue is the seat. To me, the seat is ideal, but I had to add some extra foam strategically in just the right places to achieve maximum comfort. This took me about a month of riding to get just right. Now, I finish long rides with no seat problems. The Vortex+ carbon fiber seat, properly custom-cushioned, is the best recumbent seat I have used.

Speed - Speed is always a tough issue to discuss. I am a medium speed (71 yo) rider averaging 13.5-16.5 mph on most rides. My best century speed on the Vortex+ has been 14.5 mph. My goal is to continually increase my speed through improved equipment, and, most of all, harder training. This week, I added a Renn rear disc wheel purchased at Vite Bikes. It is too early to tell whether this enhancement will aid my speed, but I did achieve my personal best trike century using the Renn disc. Some argue that if you ride at speeds less than 20 mph, the disc wheel is a waste. We shall see.

My speed on the Vortex+ is roughly 1.5 mph slower than on two wheel performance bents. I hope to close this gap. I have added the disc wheel, short cranks, and triple 50/39/27 Q-Rings, but, otherwise, the components are stock. I believe that the Vortex+ offers speed comparable to the Catrike 700, and other top performance trikes.

Frame flex at speed seems minimal for a steel framed trike. I have noticed almost none in the boom, and a little bit on the rear triangle. The frame alignment and front wheel toe-in have remained perfectly fixed since day one.

The seat has an adjustable setting (25-32 degrees) which I keep close to its maximum recline.

Safety - Like most trikes, especially laid back performance models, visibility, and thus safety, is an issue. My performance compromises, except when riding traffic-free bike trails, are bright Dinotte flashing headlight and taillight whenever there is traffic. I also run a flag. I know the flag provides aero drag, and the lights add weight. I also run a mirror on both sides of the handlebar. Safety First!

I am sure there are things I have forgotten to include, but in summary:

Pros - Performance, Comfort, Aesthetics/Bling, ICE Service

Cons - Price, Ride Quality (for some), Lack of Versatility

Tigerpaw 04-01-2013 11:14 PM 
Nice summary Howard. I ditto your experience on the Vortex. Only one exception. I do experience boom flex.

LayZeeD 04-01-2013 11:21 PM 
What did end up with milage for the year?

Howard Veit 04-01-2013 11:39 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by LayZeeD (Post 1066960)
What did end up with milage for the year? 
I didn't keep a log last year. This year I have about 2800 thus far.

dragonfly 04-01-2013 11:40 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1066909)
This week, I added a Renn rear disc wheel purchased at Vite Bikes. It is too early to tell whether this enhancement will aid my speed, but I did achieve my personal best trike century using the Renn disc. Some argue that if you ride at speeds less than 20 mph, the disc wheel is a waste. We shall see. 
The rear disc wheel covers on my two big-wheel trikes help a lot. I don't average speeds anywhere near yours, but they make me pretty quick for being on a trike. Anytime I'm cruising at 15+ mph, I can feel the advantage of the disc. There's also that great "sail effect" on windy days.



Thanks for the comments on Ultremos vs. Duranos. I still love the Stelvios I have left!

Howard Veit 04-01-2013 11:54 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfly (Post 1066980)
The rear disc wheel covers on my two big-wheel trikes help a lot. I don't average speeds anywhere near yours, but they make me pretty quick for being on a trike. Anytime I'm cruising at 15+ mph, I can feel the advantage of the disc. There's also that great "sail effect" on windy days.



Thanks for the comments on Ultremos vs. Duranos. I still love the Stelvios I have left! 
Hi Hot Chick,



Stelvios were my favorites too. I may spend a fortune on the Ultremo 406s, but they are neat tires. Hopefully, Schwalbe will improve durability without sacrificing performance.



The Renn is noisy, but I enjoy the whirring sound right behind my head. It is kind of like the wheel is whispering in my ear as I ride, "Move Your Ass! Move Your Ass!"

dragonfly 04-02-2013 01:27 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1066990)
Hi Hot Chick,



Stelvios were my favorites too. I may spend a fortune on the Ultremo 406s, but they are neat tires. Hopefully, Schwalbe will improve durability without sacrificing performance.



The Renn is noisy, but I kind of like the whirring sound right behind my head. It is kind of like the wheel is whispering in my ear as I ride, "Move Your Ass! Move Your Ass!" 
You got the hot part right. Suddenly we have temps in the 70s, shorts weather and hot sun beating in the windows. :sunny:



I won't be forgetting the "Move Your Ass!" mantra next time I'm on my Windcheetah!

Jimbo 04-02-2013 06:04 AM 
Any time you can cover up bare spokes you will get a speed improvement. The back wheel will be minimal. You only have 20" wheels on the front so you can get a set of lightweight full covers for both wheels. Because the wheels are so small you won't have much problem with the wind blowing you around. You would be looking at around 1 mph increase in speed at top speed.



Wheel covers help at all speeds. But the amount is so small at slower speeds that it's hard to measure. I get a consistent 2 mph speed increase with my 88 mm deep vee rims. But they are 700c and the 2 mph is at a speed of 30+ mph. I get less improvement at slower speeds. However, riding in the wind at any speed is improved. Acceleration is vastly improved. I cannot use full wheel covers on the front 700s because I get blown all over the road. Even small cars going past cause me to be moved around.



Bare spokes churn the hell out of the air and rob you of speed. So anything you can do to stop the churning will give you a positive result.





Quote:
  It is kind of like the wheel is whispering in my ear as I ride, "Move Your Ass! Move Your Ass!" 
My deep vee rims do that to such an extent that I banish them to the tire rack for anything except time trials. I cannot do recovery days with them on the trike. My training wheels are getting bad habits from the deep vees but at least I can control them. For the time being at least.

stephenoliver 04-02-2013 06:26 AM 
Fewer miles, but similar experiences.

Thank you, Howard, for the detailed update on your Vortex. I found it very interesting to read.



You have many more miles under your wheels than I do so far - a non-trike injury and winter having somewhat derailed me - but I share several of your experiences.



I find the seat the best I've ever ridden on, although I find it fits my back more precisely at more upright angles, which I'm also slightly faster with thus far. The way the wings of seat fit are perfect for me and give a real sense of being part of the trike, as well as plenty of security on fast corners. There is plenty of vibration but no more than on a road bike or on my Corsa.



I also use a strobing Dinotte rear light (as well as a Lezyne front light) during day time for visibility but no flag. I tend to use the flag at night due to its reflectives and would probably use it if I were likely to be in a lot of nose-to-tail traffic.



You are faster than I am. My road bike overall average for all sorts of rides is about 17 mph. My Corsa average was about 15 mph and my Vortex average thus far is about 13.5 mph. However, I tend to ride recumbents in a more relaxed fashion. When I put a similar effort in (judging from heart rate monitoring) I am about 3 mph slower on the Vortex than on a road bike or two wheel recumbent.



Thanks again for posting your review. It might help me to put in many more miles so that I can post a similar annual review this December!

Howard Veit 04-02-2013 07:41 AM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo (Post 1067067)
Any time you can cover up bare spokes you will get a speed improvement. The back wheel will be minimal. You only have 20" wheels on the front so you can get a set of lightweight full covers for both wheels.... 
Regarding the 406 front wheels, I was told that wheel covers will not work because I can install covers on the outside only. The inside of the wheels have disc brake hardware, and thus will not accommodate covers. Is that correct?



Also, I am in Florida now riding mostly windy flats. When I return to hilly N. Georgia, the Renn's additional weight (150 grams over the stock Vortex wheel) might be a slight avg. speed disadvantage. I may swap wheels when I am in steep climbing territory.

Jimbo 04-02-2013 08:13 AM 
I just made a bigger center hole on the cover for the inside of the wheel. It still covers a substantial amount of the spokes. You can make your own trial covers for a custom fit from corflute. It's cheap and easy to cut. Some people are making ultra light weight covers out of fabric covered with epoxy type stuff.



I'm not all that concerned about weight myself. I carry at least 4 litres of liquid on all of my hard rides. So 150 grams means nothing to me. Just lose 1 lb of body fat and you've got it covered. However, don't discount the speed advantage of going down the hills. I don't know how that would balance out but I doubt you would lose much speed overall. Do a couple of tests with the different wheels. The results would be of interest.

joseph1959 04-02-2013 03:26 PM 
Sounds to me like you need to find someone to make you a tailbox. Morciglio maybe? The tailbox on the Windcheetah weighs next to nothing, gives me quite a bit of storage space and adds to the speed.

3TracksintheSand 04-02-2013 04:22 PM 
I well remember your first posts about the trike and I am glad the romance continues. That is a team effort. A good trike and a dedicated rider make for a great combination!



George

Chazz 04-02-2013 04:38 PM 
Hi Howard,



Hard to believe that it has been nearly a year since you and I rode with Richard Clarke on the West Orange Trail, here in central FL.. It was a beautiful trike then, and even better with all of your upgrades. I still remember Phil Mix jumping into his car and rushing down to meet us before you left, just to see your V+. That same day, while driving back home, he called Mark Power and ordered his own V+. Amazing!

Howard Veit 04-02-2013 07:21 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 1067299)
Hi Howard,



Hard to believe that it has been nearly a year since you and I rode with Richard Clarke on the West Orange Trail, here in central FL.. It was a beautiful trike then, and even better with all of your upgrades. I still remember Phil Mix jumping into his car and rushing down to meet us before you left, just to see your V+. That same day, while driving back home, he called Mark Power and ordered his own V+. Amazing! 
Hi Chazz,



Sounds like Phil is liking his Vortex. I called Mark Powers after Phil ordered his trike, and requested a commission, but he wouldn't do it. :crazy:



I have evolved the Vortex, and am still working on it. I would like to get it as light and aero as possible, but when I mix safety into the equation, I get stymied. Dinotte lights and that darned flag counteract everything I am trying to do.



Did I see you on the Withlacoochie on Saturday? I was going north, and you and a group south. I was by you a half mile or so, and then thought that the Windcheetah and you might have been part of the group.

Howard Veit 04-02-2013 07:28 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1959 (Post 1067270)
Sounds to me like you need to find someone to make you a tailbox. Morciglio maybe? The tailbox on the Windcheetah weighs next to nothing, gives me quite a bit of storage space and adds to the speed. 
Great idea. I'll check it out. I guess my new Renn disc and the tailbox not only would be overkill, but an awfully noisy combination. :evilgrin:

joseph1959 04-02-2013 08:24 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1067358)
Great idea. I'll check it out. I guess my new Renn disc and the tailbox not only would be overkill, but an awfully noisy combination. :evilgrin: 
The tailbox is more useful IMO. Does make transporting a tiny bit more difficult.

Howard Veit 04-02-2013 08:45 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1959 (Post 1067368)
The tailbox is more useful IMO. Does make transporting a tiny bit more difficult. 
With a tailbox, I would probably have to take out my van's middle seats to transport. No big deal.

Chazz 04-02-2013 09:04 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1067355)
...Did I see you on the Withlacoochie on Saturday? I was going north, and you and a group south. I was by you a half mile or so, and then thought that the Windcheetah and you might have been part of the group. 
Yes, that probably was me along with my wife and another couple that we picked up on the trail. I thought I noticed a fast looking trike with a wheel cover go by. That must have been you. The Withlacoochee is virtually our home trail. If I knew you were going to be around I would certainly have tried to ride with you, at least part of the way. The group (CRABS) will be riding the West Orange Trail this Thursday, if you'd like to join a laid back social ride. The website is: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group...cumbentRiders/

Howard Veit 04-02-2013 09:13 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 1067394)
Yes, that probably was me along with my wife and another couple that we picked up on the trail. I thought I noticed a fast looking trike with a wheel cover go by. That must have been you. The Withlacoochee is virtually our home trail. If I knew you were going to be around I would certainly have tried to ride with you, at least part of the way. The group (CRABS) will be riding the West Orange Trail this Thursday, if you'd like to join a laid back social ride. The website is: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group...cumbentRiders/ 
Chazz,



Thanks for the invite. My son is visiting this week so I can't make it. Maybe sometime later in the month. I would like to see you guys again.



The Withlacoochie and the Suncoast Trails have been my favorites, although it takes me two + hours to get to them from Sarasota. I love trails where I can shed all the extra weight on the trike (lights/flag, etc) and really cut loose. My Vortex especially loves the Suncoast Trail where there is minimal user traffic during the week.

Jimbo 04-02-2013 09:21 PM 
A properly designed tailbox, not just any box, will do much more than the rear disk wheel. Probably about the same as front wheel disks. Combine the three things, tailbox, front wheel and rear wheel disks and you will have done about everything you can do to make your tadpole faster.



I'm at the end of physical things I can do to my QNT. I am trying to stay "unfaired". A tailbox is a fairing of sorts. Full wheel covers are fairings unless the wheel has no spokes and many TT's won't permit full wheel covers on the front wheels. So I went with the next best thing which is 88mm deep vee rims. I still haven't matched my best times with 3 full wheel covers but I do come close and, at least, I can ride on the road with the deep vees.



Oh, btw, didn't someone just have some 20" deep vee rims on the forum. That would be a good alternative to full wheel covers. The spokes will be so short that they will have a minimal effect. And you can still get at the valve stem.



In the end the only thing you can do is to make the tadpole go as fast as you can make it go. It will still be a slow trike. There have been several threads recently about tilting, narrow track deltas with fwd, mbb. THAT will be the fastest trike. With both wheels shadowed behind the seat it is almost as aero as the best 2 wheeler.



But, be that as it may, it is still a challenge to make the tadpole faster, so until I come up with some sort of delta I will keep trying to make my QNT faster. Just can't let a challenge go unanswered.

Howard Veit 04-02-2013 11:41 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo (Post 1067403)
A properly designed tailbox, not just any box, will do much more than the rear disk wheel. Probably about the same as front wheel disks. Combine the three things, tailbox, front wheel and rear wheel disks and you will have done about everything you can do to make your tadpole faster.



I'm at the end of physical things I can do to my QNT. I am trying to stay "unfaired". A tailbox is a fairing of sorts. Full wheel covers are fairings unless the wheel has no spokes and many TT's won't permit full wheel covers on the front wheels. So I went with the next best thing which is 88mm deep vee rims. I still haven't matched my best times with 3 full wheel covers but I do come close and, at least, I can ride on the road with the deep vees.



Oh, btw, didn't someone just have some 20" deep vee rims on the forum. That would be a good alternative to full wheel covers. The spokes will be so short that they will have a minimal effect. And you can still get at the valve stem.



In the end the only thing you can do is to make the tadpole go as fast as you can make it go. It will still be a slow trike. There have been several threads recently about tilting, narrow track deltas with fwd, mbb. THAT will be the fastest trike. With both wheels shadowed behind the seat it is almost as aero as the best 2 wheeler.



But, be that as it may, it is still a challenge to make the tadpole faster, so until I come up with some sort of delta I will keep trying to make my QNT faster. Just can't let a challenge go unanswered. 
Think my next project is to get aero front wheels. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'd rather do that than wheel covers.



And train like a madman. I have been doing a hard TT (personal) per week. My old bod is the main equipment weakness at this point.

Jimbo 04-03-2013 03:00 AM 
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...ad.php?t=94845

TheBentMix 04-12-2013 04:12 PM 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Veit (Post 1067355)
Hi Chazz,



Sounds like Phil is liking his Vortex. I called Mark Powers after Phil ordered his trike, and requested a commission, but he wouldn't do it. :crazy:



I have evolved the Vortex, and am still working on it. I would like to get it as light and aero as possible, but when I mix safety into the equation, I get stymied. Dinotte lights and that darned flag counteract everything I am trying to do.



Did I see you on the Withlacoochie on Saturday? I was going north, and you and a group south. I was by you a half mile or so, and then thought that the Windcheetah and you might have been part of the group. 
Hi Howard, RE: Update on the V+. Chas is correct. I did order my V+ from POC less than an hour after I sat in your Medium seat V+.

Wow, Got two weeks to owning it a year, 4,000 miles, rear 2x700 Durano change at 3,500 mi. The two 406 Duranos are still going. I love it. Finally found the minimalist bags I was looking for: 2 Xlab Tire bags, about 1-1/2 L size. Good for all the day ride needs. Thanks for the ride. Hope to see you on Sharky's Ride of the Beaches.



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8534/8...c300f34f_c.jpg

damrunner1 04-12-2013 04:44 PM 
Nice to hear about your 1 year anniversary and thanks for the seat of the pants experience. The people in your neighborhood are right, your trike is sweet. Keep on rolling.

Howard Veit 04-12-2013 05:25 PM 
[quote=TheBentMix;1071957]Hi Howard, RE: Update on the V+. Chas is correct. I did order my V+ from POC less than an hour after I sat in your Medium seat V+.

Wow, Got two weeks to owning it a year, 4,000 miles, rear 2x700 Durano change at 3,500 mi. The two 406 Duranos are still going. I love it. Finally found the minimalist bags I was looking for: 2 Xlab Tire bags, about 1-1/2 L size. Good for all the day ride needs. Thanks for the ride. Hope to see you on Sharky's Ride of the Beaches.



Hi Phil,



Glad you are enjoying the Vortex+. And glad I played a small role. See you at Sharky's.



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